A Deeper Dive Into Universal Design For Learning with Lillian Nave
Lillian Nave is a Senior Lecturer and UDL Coordinator at Appalachian State University. She’s also the host of the Think UDL Podcast. Lillian joins Mike Palmer and guest host Dawn DiPeri on this deep dive into UDL and other trends Lillian is noticing from her vantage point in inclusive education.
Lillian shares her origin story, which began in art history, moved to freshman seminar, and ultimately landed in UDL and Faculty Development. She outlines three trends she’s noticed in light of the pandemic: a move away from exclusively in-person conferences, a move towards greater flexibility, and a move away from campus amenities like climbing walls and lazy rivers when assessing the quality of the learner’s experience when making decisions about higher education.
It’s a fantastic deep dive on the trend of UDL with passionate advocates for truly inclusive design thinking being applied to educational practices in higher ed and beyond.
If you like what you’re hearing subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Check us out at TrendinginEducation.com.
Mike Palmer: Welcome to Trending in Education. Mike Palmer here. Very excited to be joined again by Dawn Di Peri. Dawn, welcome back to Training in Education.
Dawn DiPeri: Thanks again for having me. I’m super excited about our guest today.
Mike Palmer: As if that weren’t enough, we also have Lillian Nave with us. Lillian, welcome to Trending in Education.
Lillian Nave: Thank you so much for inviting me. I’m excited to talk today.
Mike Palmer: Yeah. And I’m excited to talk to you as well. It’s always fun to have a fellow podcaster on the podcast.
Lillian is the host of the Think UDL podcast. She’s also a Senior Lecturer at Appalachian state university. We were having fun, just kicking it about podcasting before we got started, but we normally begin by getting our guest’s origin story, Lillian. Can you catch us up on what got you to this point in your professional life and what you’re doing these days?
Lillian Nave: Yes. Sure. I am a recovering art historian. I got a graduate degree in art history and taught for about a year and a half and then started a family. So I went out of academia for about seven years and I had three children.
And so then I started clawing my way back in part-time, which is what worked for me. I felt like my brain had turned to mush a bit, so I needed a little bit of that. Children were in preschool and so for about seven years or so, I was an adjunct at a community college and then an adjunct and then part-time at Appalachian state where I still am.
So that was about 10 years ago or so. And then I eventually got into a full-time position. And that full-time position was no longer in the art department, but I had been doing a first-year seminar. So when you’re in that precarious position in academia, you just jump at every opportunity.
I saw a chance to make myself indispensable right away by doing first year seminar courses that would then funnel students into the art department because there weren’t very many art-focused interdisciplinary FIS courses. And so I started doing that and again, I’m like a puppy who’s “Yeah. Okay. I’ll do it. I’ll jump on it, whatever you want me to do that. Sure.”
So just did a bunch of those things and eventually got a full-time position and switched over to first year seminar. So that’s what I’ve been doing for six years. And about that same time I was. I don’t know if you might say recruited by Katie Brinko, who is the head of our teaching and learning center and saw it a bit of my interest in trying new things.
And I had applied for a grant because we did have grants that were available for non tenure track for part-time as well as tenure track people. So that was oh, a great boon. And she believed in me more than I believed in myself. So I really have to give Kate Brinko credit for saying that I was creative because I did not think I was creative at all.
As an art historian, I look at artists who I think are amazing and I’m an analyst really. I’m there to critique or criticize it or deduce and tear apart. And so I never thought of myself as creative. But that was the real spark. And we started a Faculty Fellows program, which is very popular in Higher Ed when you don’t have money to give people, but you could give them a course release and you let them work on some sort of teaching and learning or research project or something.
And I started doing that and that’s how I got into faculty development. And that eventually got me into universal design for learning as well.
Mike Palmer: Yeah, that’s some great stuff. And then while you’re on this roll. Yeah. Folks made not have known they were going to be quizzed.
But we are going to ask what is Universal Design for Learning? So please pause the podcast right now, reflect back on previous episodes. We’ve talked about it a few times, but we’d also love to get a refresher. Assuming somebody might be fresh to the space, can you frame up for us what Universal Design for Learning is?
Lillian Nave: I can try. It is a design principle, really. It’s a way of thinking about teaching and learning and a way of designing where at the forefront of everything is you were thinking of learner variability. That you recognize that anybody who’s coming into your workforce, your program, your classroom is going to be diverse and that diversity could be in learning differences.
Including disabilities, but certainly not limited to those. Different cultural backgrounds, different languages, different life circumstances, working mothers with young children at home, second career switching into a different career. That our learners are radically diverse, different ethnic backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, et cetera.
Universal Design for Learning is a lens through which you begin, like you have to start with that learner variability. And not only do you recognize it, but you value it and you put that at the center of your design. So that means you offer choices, knowing I’m going to get more out of my students, my professionals, if I give them options to shine it’s not just, here’s my one way or the highway.
We’re only having this kind of assessment, or I’m only giving you this kind of thing to read or see or watch, or do. I’m going to say, choose from these options or show me what you can produce, knowing that you have strengths that you can leverage in this learning environment where we’re all co equals. There’s a facilitator role rather than that Sage on the stage role when you are moving in universal design for learning
I’d say it’s a design lens where the student is the center and the valuing of diversity in those students and leveraging that for the betterment of all. So that includes multiple means of action and expression. Multiple means of representation and multiple means of engagement, which are the three main pillars of universal design for learning. That if you want a resource go to CAST the Center for Applied Specialized Technology and they list a large set of ways to think about universal design for learning, but it’s not just accessibility. It’s not just a checklist. It’s not just things you have to do and then your universally designed. It’s also, I think, very invitational. We are asking for feedback. It becomes a group movement rather than a call and response type of community.
Mike Palmer: Almost like inclusion as a practice, in some ways. UDL was ahead of some of trends that I think we’ve seen some acceleration in particularly in light of COVID, but then also Black Lives Matter and all the political upheaval and polarization we’re seeing there’s increased need.
And Dawn, I know it’s something you’re very passionate about and you work on designing a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion programs. We talked with Eric Moore a bit also about the importance of belonging. Which I think is another component where when the design intent is there to give everyone equal footing at the table, people feel much more connected and welcomed.
And it’s very easy to forget that when you’re rolling your eyes and saying, I’ve got to check this box to meet some sort of compliance requirement, rather than coming at it in a more holistic learner-centered, empathetic way. Dawn, I’d love to hear a little bit more from you on this as we lean in.
Dawn DiPeri: Yeah, it’s interesting. You bring up DEI and UDL. And when we talked to Eric, we talked about the feeling of belonging. We also talked about accessibility, but the idea that we want to let our students lead the way and be co-facilitators co-creators and co-teach in our classroom. And we want to recognize there are differences in terms of ethnic, racial diversity, in terms of neurodiversity, in terms of as Lillian mentioned, their work-life balance, their age, their able-ism, all of those things, right?
We want to make sure that everyone feels like they have a seat at the table and they’re actively being part of the curriculum as well and where we’re engaging them and giving them multiple ways for them to express themselves for them do their work and yeah, it’s really great work. And I’m really passionate about just spreading this word in all facets.
Lillian Nave: It’s been a big topic lately. With diversity equity and inclusion, and one of the things I’ve seen a lot in higher ed are some trainings and especially out of Columbia. There’s a great training about diversity equity inclusion. Our campus has for lack of a better word “sleeper agents.”
So people who are dispersed throughout each department who can bring these ideas into the department. And we worked with the Columbia MOOC or Columbia series. And I got to interview Amanda Jungles, and we did that connection between DEI and UDL because they are intimately linked. And you have to be thinking of that from the very beginning.
Dawn DiPeri: Yeah, absolutely. Like when you look at your syllabus, we were just, talking about developing a course for DEI and making sure that faculty are designing their course and forefront are thinking about this. Are they including resources from a diverse set of scholars and are they not just all white men? We need to be intentional now at the forefront before that course is even created
Mike Palmer: And then you’re helping these people navigate this Lillian. And so I’d love to get a little bit around what has it felt like over the last year?
Because it almost felt like you were ahead of an avalanche and maybe didn’t know it was coming and it came through. Maybe you could surf the blizzard for a while, but it actually feels like we’re all on the other side and starting to get our legs under us. Again, I don’t know if my metaphor may have fallen down, falling down somewhere along the way, just like the skier, but I’d love some perspective on what has been like this past year because it does feel like a field like we’re on the trendspotting show and we’re going deep on UDL multiple times for a reason. It does feel like there’s been an awakening around this stuff. And as someone who’s been on it for a while and has been advocating for it, evangelizing for it, what’s been like this past year?
Lillian Nave: Well, I definitely feel very lucky that my entry into UDL was before this pandemic. And I certainly have benefited from that and have been able to see some things before my colleagues only because of my introduction to universal design for learning which I coincidentally fell into after being the Faculty Fellow.
And then our university worked with College Star, which is a grant that worked with several of our North Carolina schools in the system. And it was to bring universal design for learning to the instructors or professors. And that was my role. And then we had another part to that grant, which was about tutoring centers and helping students in on the other side.
So we went to two-pronged and that really helped me to start thinking broadly about our students and about design, which is something I had not done. So I’d been teaching since 1997 with then time off children and then back in. And I certainly hadn’t questioned my design. I just went with what I had been doing.
And there’s a lot of imposter syndrome that you have to get over. You’ve got to be doing this for a while to think you’d belong in that classroom. And so it came at a time where I had enough years on me as a parent of three very different children that has a big crossover into universal design for learning.
When you start to see how different people learn and you love them all the same, but they’re very different. So I started to see attitudes change. Our university has been adding to their online courses and maybe I think we had something called 14 for 2014. They were going to add 14 more online courses back in 2014.
So that was early on. But there were also certain parts of universities that were like, no, we are an in-person centered place in my particular division is first-year seminar. And that’s supposed to be for first years a small 20 to 24 person seminar class. And you’re supposed to get to know each other.
It’s interdisciplinary you introduce them, not only to the college, but to college level research. It’s a huge ask, right? And our university was against that being online. Like this needs to be in person, but that has been very much I think what universities have been up against too is this is the only way to do it.
And because of my introduction to universal design for learning, I thought, you know what I have seen through people much smarter than me with much more real background in working with students online that you can create community that you can do and replicate so many of these things in a virtual world that you put of in the classroom that.
The university decided, Hey, we need to have a way for students to get a fully online degree. And there’s this one course first year seminar, that’s not offered online and never has been. So I was like, okay, I’ll do it again. I volunteered. And that was before the pandemic. So I felt very lucky that happened. I started taking QM, Quality Matters courses, which is about online excellence in teaching. And I started to get really heavy into that before BOOM! No matter if you like it or not, you’re going online. So that was a snowball. And as I was doing that, I had my eyes on, or my Twitter on a whole bunch of people.
Like people you’ve talked to like fFower Darby and Brian Videllew does the whole Hy-flex and happened to be clued in. I feel like I was one page ahead because of this universal design for learning.
Dawn DiPeri: So ironic that was accepted as an online course already, but it hasn’t in a lot of places, because if you think about say you have to do a library demonstration in a freshmen seminar, here’s your library.
Here’s how to use your resources, but let’s be real. College students if they need something in the library are going to do that online from their computer or their phone. They’re probably not going to walk into the actual physical library as often, you may have a small amount, but the majority are going to be doing it online.
So why not show them how to do this online. You’re using the databases there. You’re not getting a book anymore.
Lillian Nave: No, you’re not.
Mike Palmer: Although it is interesting to think about the flip side to a situation where maybe universal design isn’t being used. Let’s say.
There’s no closed captioning for video lessons, as an example. Then a hearing-impaired student may need to go to the library where they have a separate version, just to extend the thinking where if the design is not intentionally making room for these folks they feel as though they have to go through friction.
Lillian Nave: So the whole accommodation model and universal design for learning is different, separate from differentiation, which would be more the word in K-12 or accommodation, which is maybe the more the accessibility word in higher ed. It’s that you designed from the beginning. So as not to have the need to go to the office of disability services.
I had to have three people sign this form that I have to give it to my five professors. And then I have to come up with a plan. If all of your professors are designing from the beginning, you don’t have so much friction, right?
Mike Palmer: Yeah. And even if you move it up a level to the administration or someone responsible for workforce development, learning, and development it does translate to line items and budgets.
And it’s a place where I think the awareness of the quote, unquote digital divide, this has awakened like I said before, many of us, some of whom hold the purse strings. So it does feel like there is an opportunity now to do good because of this raising of awareness. But it still feels like people are shook a little bit.
And your point about imposter syndrome, I think is a great one too. It’s hard to actually step into I’m the expert talking about this. I’m the evangelist. I’m actually advocating for it. But it sounds like you’ve been doing that and the podcast is Think UDL. And then you were talking to us about some trends, which I wouldn’t mind hopping ahead.
Normally we do it at the end, but I feel like maybe we get a little back and forth around some of the trends you’re noticing.
Lillian Nave: Absolutely. Yeah. And if your listeners are interested in UDL for other podcasts, mine is higher ed and workforce readiness focused. And there’s another great podcast, which is called UDL in 15 minutes.
If you’ve got K-12 listeners and UDL research in 15 minutes, both of those are by Louis Lord Nelson. Who’s fabulous. In fact, both of our podcasts came out within a month. Like apparently we had been deciding we were going to do this and then they both erupted on the scene because strangely there wasn’t a podcast on UDL.
So there’s there’s a lot of things to take, to learn. It’s an explosion out there about universal design for learning. So if you’re interested there’s quite a lot that’s out there
Mike Palmer: And just real quick, you’re on Twitter. I heard. So can you just share your Twitter handle for folks who might be interested?
Lillian Nave: So I’m at personally @LillianNave and the podcast is @Think UDL . Either one and that from that think UDL handle a lot about the API and UDL and accessibility and those sorts of things. And the podcast comes out every other week. Also fortnightly.
Mike Palmer: Nice. That was one of my favorite expressions. As someone who’s doing this on the regular, you are starting to notice some trends, you outlined three trends, which sounded pretty interesting to me when we started. Can you share those with us?
Lillian Nave: Absolutely. The first one I’m noticing is as we’re taping this is the end of the full year of the pandemic and people are getting vaccinated.
And a lot of universities, including my own are saying, we’re going full time back in person. Just like it was in 2019, but not everything I think is going to be the same. In fact, nothing is going to be the same. I really don’t think so. We have seen during the pandemic that the pandemic has laid bare the need for change.
And that includes, I looked through a universal design for learning lens. And so I’m seeing it in things like first thing is conferences. So that’s something that’s huge and has been huge in academic settings. For promotion and tenure, if you’re on the tenure track at you need to be presenting at those.
So you need to network at those. If you are trying to get a job, you want to be going to those or using that to and conferences for the last 12 months, plus have been online there haven’t been in person that’s radically different. And I’m thinking that as conferences start to go back, there’s going to be at least a hybrid version that the conference talks are going to be online. That they’re going to be live tweeted. That they’re going to be accessible. That they’re going to be recorded and you can access those recordings for the next 90 days or a year or something like that. That you can pay to go, or you can pay to not go right.
You have access. It costs half the price if you aren’t going to the place to be in the hotel, wherever it is
Mike Palmer: That one’s great. And I want to pause briefly on that one to say the economics are crazy now too. Like just supporting the spend for travel and hotels it’s almost feels like it’s going to become more of a, just VIP, only our in person or local.
The other thing I heard recently was sponsoring parallel meetups all around the place so that when you’re doing a big UDL conference, you can just have local happy hours that are happening at the same time. So it does feel like a lot of room for innovation around this. We’d love to go deep on that one but maybe we can quickly hit the all three.
Lillian Nave: Sure. The second thing we’ll have to talk about is flexibility in coursework. So if I’m thinking about higher ed itself and teaching that the pandemic has laid bare. That we do not have the same type of students that we once thought we had. We haven’t had those students in a long time, but this pandemic has made it very clear that we have adult students students coming back and learning a new trade, getting a different degree of students who work all the time.
Students who are taking care of younger siblings when, especially when school was out, all of those things means teaching and learning and how we design our coursework is not going to work the same way that it did when we said, all right, I’ll see you every Tuesday and Thursday at three o’clock. And if you’re not here, you’re a bad student.
Mike Palmer: Yeah. And that one to me speaks to the need for instructional design, design thinking, UDL, all these topics that we’re talking about, because what we built before was broken. People might’ve even known, but there was so much inertia. It was hard to make the change. Now this shock to the system gives us an opportunity to hopefully lead and design differently.
And then hopefully with a little more resourcing for centers for learning and teaching, for people who are passionate about helping teachers get better at their craft, which I know is something both you care deeply about. Can we hit the third trend and then we go freeform hop around?
Lillian Nave: Yeah. It’s related to number two.
And that is I think there’s a shift, not just in the classroom. But in the structure and the mission of the university I’m at. For I thought maybe 10 years, like 2000 to 2010, maybe 2015. It was like the decade of the lazy river and the climbing wall where it was about the experience of being on campus.
And a lot of funding was going to that a lot of customer experience for the students being the customers was at the forefront. And I think this pandemic has obliterated that, which was, we’re not even letting students on campus, it has to be online. Colleges and universities have to be multimodal.
So they have to employ a lot of people who know what to do with technology. How to get that PR and talk to their students and train students on that? How can your university be everywhere at once and not just on campus that you’d spent so much money to make it a draw to come to campus? Universities are going to have to diversify and also really put money into and bring up those things like centers for teaching and learning to get our teachers, to be able to do that number two, which is flexibility and coursework.
Dawn DiPeri: Yeah, I agree. And I have a little bit of a marketing background, so I think of when you are doing a college tour and you step out of your car and you take a walk on campus, you’re a college student at the traditional age. We may think, wow, look at this amazing fitness center.
This looks like a country club. Wow. This has a great whatever, that’s our ground space campus. But now that we know, and we have learned that we need to shift some of our priority to teaching and online teaching and also face to face teaching where a lot of our instructors they’re subject matter experts, right?
So they aren’t necessarily taught to learn how to teach. So we need to allocate some funds for that and also build up those online programs, build up the pedagogy component and the teaching and learning. And then we need to look at marketing. And now how do we communicate to the families and to the students and to all different students of all ages and types?
How do we demonstrate that we have a robust, great institution that exists beyond those barriers of that campus? That’s going to be the challenge I see, because that’s not as flashy. But in the end, how you get learning to stick is how you get a job.
It’s not going to be the climbing wall. That’s going to get you the job
Mike Palmer: And just to build on that, the economics of the climbing wall, those colleges that are in more trouble, because that’s a sunk cost. And the flip side of that sunk cost is where do we benchmark the pricing of online learning, which I think there’s a real dissonance there, particularly if you’re thinking about like a small, private liberal arts college. Some parents who have the wherewithal, were spending a premium there to help their kids go to that university.
When now, as we expanded our thinking about who might be entering higher ed, you start realizing that’s a much bigger universe. And it’s probably a much more price sensitive universe. So that’s where I do wonder whether new models are going to emerge maybe around certification or credentialing in a simpler ways.
Also, community colleges are a topic that people talk about a lot, but I’d love your trends, Lillian. I’m just free-forming here, but either of you want to pick up on any of this.
Lillian Nave: It makes me think of competency based learning badging. Are universities going to be moving towards, if it’s not come here and stay here for years for your experience, and I’m using air quotes on a podcast, but for your college experience? And it’s just, it’s different. We’re learning how very different our students are. How the world is different. And so our system has to change and universal design for learning I see at the very heart of it is thinking about multiple modalities, making it a barrier free, or at least taking down as many barriers as possible. So all these students can be successful.
Mike Palmer: Yeah. And it seems like a real, from my experience as someone who’s not deep into it, it feels like a real community of practice.
People care about each other. They care about the fact that we’re all in this together. It’s inclusive in that context as well. So people are welcomed in and are encouraged to feel like they can talk about this stuff. I realized you would expect that, but there are places where that doesn’t always happen.
So I would say for folks who are maybe hearing about this a few times on this podcast, it’s a space where we need more advocates and we’re bringing folks on who can help guide you a little bit along the way. So I just wanted to make sure we made one more plug for that.
Lillian Nave: I’m thinking about Dawn, your PR experience in marketing.
It seems like a marketing problem, because I have heard the student voice saying, what am I paying for zoom university? I’m not getting my value,my, dollar value here. And so I think we have to change a lot of messaging.
Dawn DiPeri: And what is the benefit there. And I see it as how can we shift the institution as a structure, into a workforce funnel and how can we create
or build that bridge and how we can use online and UDL principles, of course, maybe there’s some opportunity there.
Mike Palmer: Yeah. And it does sound like there was disruption from the outside in a way we’d never seen before in online learning in general higher ed which the area your focus most on workforce development and other place where people probably will never work in offices in the same way again.
So the world is changing. We got pushed forward in some interesting ways. Time is flying. I always love to get folks perspective on what might be a little further down the road as well. We can start to synthesize and reinforce what we talked about in case folks may have missed some things. But then I always love to hear some, futuristic perspective from either or both of you around where things may go, where you’d like them to go something new that’s emerging, anything.
Lillian Nave: I’d like to continue on that idea. Maybe even push it further about that flexibility and creativity that the pandemic has pushed us into this place, but how wonderful it is. Let’s take a silver lining. Let’s move that forward. One of the things if I’m thinking in higher ed. Who is going to come to an in-person faculty meeting.
Oh my goodness. Especially if you’ve got in our campus, we’re in the mountains and many of our faculty live in another , 40, 50 minutes away hey, maybe we can cheap things. Like I have a zoom or a, a video conference meeting. And it’s no longer those barriers.
And wow, we used to put such a premium on office hours, that old idea of your stuffy professor in a Tweed jacket with elbow pads, smoking a pipe. And then the, knock on wood shop to you about my great ideas about this literature. That doesn’t happen. Students don’t come to our offices.
But can we normalize having a Zoom face-to-face like, that’s just as good. Maybe that’s even better. My students would much rather stay in their dorm room and click on a link and talk to me then finding where my office is hidden in the bowels of an old building with no windows. So I think this is a great time for creativity to think about what is workforce readiness too?
How can we start training people to come on the job before they’re even on our campus, right? I’m not talking about a university campus, I’m talking about our Google or whatever place they’re going to be landing. There can be a real creativity about those interactions beforehand. How you learn about culture of the place you’re going to. How you can
bring yourself and your culture in. How that invitation is happening. I think there’s a lot that we can be creative with this push.
Dawn DiPeri: And to build on that. I love the idea like crowdsource education and using guest lectures from all over the world to have our students be more global minded and to have a look inside, what is it like in a day in the life of somebody who works at some of their premier institutions that they have their eye on, or the places that they want to get employed at, and those people can so easily come on and be a part of your classroom.
So that is an opportunity where before you had to pay a guest lecturer to come on to your physical campus. That was out of the budget for a lot of schools now, you may be able to get people to do that in a one hour webinars or something. It’s a lot of that.
Mike Palmer: Yeah, absolutely. We’re getting close to time, but the other area that I love to talk about is new media and emerging technology. One area that is really interesting is virtual reality. And it’s always interesting though, when something is very cutting edge, it’s not always built in a UDL way. So I’d be curious what your thinking is about some of the new capabilities. I know there’s also corollaries around immersive audio, it’s not like it’s just for people who can see VR mixed reality, but any perspective on that from a universal design for learning ?
Lillian Nave: Yeah, , in general, my answer is similar and that is what is your goal? So knowing to clarify what the goal is is going to be helpful and then what are your options to get to that goal? If somebody could watch a video, read something or do the immersive reality and get the same endpoint, then that’s great. But if there’s something that’s absolutely inherent in that immersive part, you have to find out what that is. And I know that can be difficult for some, right?
So we don’t want to force something on. We’ve had a few times at our university before the pandemic where I got to try that on. I swear I get dizzy. I can’t do it. I thought it was really cool when I had an iPad and I went to an archeological site and I could see stuff as an ancient art historian.
That was awesome. But some of it I’m just like, Oh my gosh, I feel like I’m in a swimming. Having those options so some people are going to be awesome super gamers. They’re totally into it. And some are not. And what are your options for those students as well?
Mike Palmer: Yeah. Great stuff. Any concluding thoughts? This has been a wonderful conversation. The name of the podcast is Think UDL Lillian Nave is a real resource, thanks very much for joining us Lillian.
Lillian Nave: Thank you for having me. I’ve really enjoyed being able to talk about things because I don’t end up pushing like this and thinking about what might be in the future.
I think that is great. That’s what you are doing, especially lately with these, where are we going? I’m always seeing universal design for learning, so any time your company and your university can give options for your students, your clients. Invest in that, because that means you value the diversity of the people you serve.
So that’s the best advice I have learned from universal design for learning is not only saying that it matters, but that I value you. And I value all the people who I’m going to serve.
Mike Palmer: Yeah. Yeah. The emotional component of learning design is another trend that has really been popping. And this was popping too.
This was a wonderful conversation, Dawn. Thanks again for making the connections. Thanks for joining.
Dawn DiPeri: Thank you
Mike Palmer: And Lillian, . Hopefully there’ll be some repeat engagements for you. That’s something we take pride in creating more Trending in Education, alumni down the road. And folks should definitely check out the Think UDL podcast for more from Lillian.
Lillian Nave: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Mike Palmer: And for our listeners, thanks for listening. We value you. Hopefully you feel included in the conversation. We’d love to get some of your feedback as well. We’re @TrendinginEd on Twitter. Follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Share the word, tell a friend.
We’ll be back again soon. This is Trending in Education.